The Pokemon Tier System

I was on another pokemon website and I saw the tiering system. It was there for every single pokemon game and the games pokemon appeared in. I noticed that some of the pokemon placed at the top were odd, somthing that you would never use in a battle. So I began questioning the use of tiers. I noticed that they gratify and nullify pokemon. Pokemon on the bottom are never used even if they have chances of winning competative play. I'm asking, what is the point of the tier sytem, to tell you which pokemon to steer clear of or how to make super mega powerful bred ones.

Teir tell you about how much they are used, which is linked to how strong they are... Note teirs, but you can use some UUs and most BLs in an OU match. Personally I use the pokemon I like despite the fact they suck, it olny makes the battles I win even better.
(XD that coming from the lucario/ninjask/smeargle fan)

I think all the tiers serve to prove is that Nintendo needs to work on better balancing the pokemon in the games, so that people can more effectively use the pokemon they like, rather than just what's powerful, and stand just as good of a chance at winning as anybody else.

Loko you make sense. I always use my two LVL 100 combo [they are with other pokemon if im not in a 2vs2] Blazeman[or Blazewoman depends on Blaziken gender] and Swabla [Altaria] I don't know about the tier in ths sense of my pokemon strenght. They ususally say that there are other pokemon I have which are better than my favorite two pokemon. If you know how to use your pokemon to hurt others without hurting themselfs then you will excel regardless of tiers [Earthquake on your other pokemon and you second pokemon is flying. This is all from the double battle point of view. All this comming from a Blaziken and Altaria fan.]

Also remember that sometime pokemon like shaymin (ground form) is UU beacause Celebi (OU) does shaymin's job a little better, but shaymin is still usuable right. Dont sweat the small stuff (unless you are using something like sunkern).

[i like sunflora]
I know but some of these pokemon learn exclusive moves that are somewhat strong, dangerous with a critical hit. There also should be different types of matches like, starter matches, aby pokemon matches. Matches like those will force people to think and it will even out the tiers a little bit becuase many pokemon lear good moves at a later level giving others a fighting chance.

There are teir matches if that's what you mean...

Yeah but also when you limit the selection of pokemon like 'Battling pokemon must be smaller that # of feet" the selection of pokemon dimisihes so the tiers become usless. They're only there for problems for me.

Keep in mind... competitive battles are usually single battles. Therefore, the double battle tricks are generally disacknowledged as useless; Lightningrod, for example, means such Pokemon as Rhyperior and Manectric would be great teammates for a Gyarados... but only in double battles.

Likewise, teaming Flying types up with a partner that can use Earthquake to waste Electric and Rock types (but not them) is a great Double Battle strategy too... but, again, not something that's figured in 'officially.'

Also, have fun making Magikarp excel regardless of tiers. Baton Pass it some Swords Dances and Agilities and it can maaaybe use a good Flail to kill some UUs. Maybe. But the tiers exist for purely statistical reasons: fact of the matter is, the stronger Pokemon are rarer to keep sort of a balance. They're found in inconvenient places, like Dratini in the depths of the Gen I Safari Zone or Gible in a literally hidden cave.

Side note: Blaziken and Altaria are both decent Pokemon. Altaria is mainly just overshadowed by the myriad other Dragon/Flying Pokemon; it's in a bit of a crowded type, and the others eclipse it, stat-wise. Though it's certainly the best Dragon type regarding stat-changing moves; it can use Dragon Dance to boost its stats, or Featherdance to lower the opponent's, plus it has Sing to cause sleep, and I think it might have Heal Bell or something... But that's a bit of a niche; things like Salamence are just all around useful, which is why Salamence is in a higher tier.

Or Bagon in that one room i could never find until a few years ago.

But Atlaria are uselful because of Perish song. Especially if the opponent is down to his last pokemon or 2. also Sky Attack which few can use. Salamance is only good becuase of its ability and known moveset. Altaria usually has a good one [natural heal] but still i only do double battles. That is possible in competition. I guess people like to own with one pokemon. I like to use my whole team to help, like the move Beat Up.

Uh, Beat Up has nothing to do with Double Battles, for one thing.

Second off, you're gonna -love- the Triple Battles in Black and White, I guess.

Perish Song is pretty useful, though Altaria has no trapping move to go with it.

Anyways... I've got nothing against Double Battles, myself. A lot of the relatively weak Pokemon have great Potential there; using Follow Me to divert attacks from the main force, or things like Gravity to affect the whole field.

But, again, these aren't figured into the tier system; fun as double battles are, the SERIOUS OFFICIAL BUSINESS matches are generally conducted one-on-one. xP

If you aren't fighting in tournaments anyways, though, then who cares about the tiers? :3 Use whatever you want. xP The tiers only apply in official tourneys and junk.

Yes, yes I will love them. If you have two Sneaels or Weavile in a double batte out and use beat up twice it can take out a pokemon.
I know but that also heigtens the usage of OHKO moves. Wasnt pokemon for fun and not classification and competition. It was some fanboys that decided to do it.
Yeah I battle with people [i.e. some of my friends] who have been in tournaments and they mock my pokemon and keep quoting the tier system. Then one of them tried to restructure my team and wanted to remove my Gon Gon [Flygon], Plus [Plusle], Mosquito {Masqurain], and my Shedinja. They think the tier sytem is all that but i stil kicked his ass. The tier system is a load of crap. Moreover its annoying.

Beat Up still has nothing to do with Double Battles. And is best if your entire team is packed with Weaviles and Tyranitars.

For the record, the Pokemon they wanted to remove from your team were just because they were trying to give you constructive criticism. Plusle's almost entirely just in a Double-Battle niche with Minun, Masquerain is in the severely overcrowded Bug/Flying group, and Flygon is Outclassed by Garchomp, and Shedinja is... Shedinja. Of course, good use can be made of all of them; they just have their own little niches, and have a harder time getting out than their stronger counterparts.

Yeah, it's annoying. But you can't deny that Garchomp flatly outclasses Flygon in every way, for example. Not that you can't like or use Flygon, but... statistically speaking, Garchomp -is- better.

Actually I have trouble finding either of them, Pluse or Minun. They are good when they et around LVL 50.
Most of my pokemon in my PC are Hoenn pokemon sooo yeah.....and this was before I could ever find Bagon. I even have troouble getting Gible. Stupid pokemon pops the ulta balls with no health.
I relish the Gen 3 so I mostly use pokemon from that gen. Call it a habit but I do. I really don't like the Gen 4 because they screwed up the pokemon. I only got the so called 'better pokemon upgrades from the Sinnoh' because I needed to fill my dex. Its just its moves come a tad late for me.

I dunno about other new evolutions, but you can't deny that Weavile's quite awesome.

Also, Plusle and Minun have that same problem... they're outclassed. In their case, by Raichu, which can learn all sorts of Plusle and Minun's status moves as a Pichu.

And yeah... Dratini, Bagon, Larvitar, Gible... they all tend to have really low catch rates. And slow hatching rates, for that matter. It's meant to make them harder to get. Because they're good.

I used a Plusle and Minun back in the day, myself. Giving the faster one Rain Dance and the slower one Thunder was an amazing combo.

Raichu? I like Pikachu, Plusle and Minun, better than Raichu.
Yeah I mostly got Golbats. Its just like the whole Feebas thing in the Hoenn, sit and wait....forever before finding just one.

Where's the porygon Z and togekiss love?
But that is a good point on the double battles. Like my Starmie/Slaking Skill Swap combo I did with my brother in the link battler tower in Diamond/Pearl we go like a 70 win streak with that...
Now olny if that granted me in a match with palmer.

Too bad but Porygon and Poryon 2 is Ok but finding the dubious disk is hard.

Chewya wrote:Raichu? I like Pikachu, Plusle and Minun, better than Raichu.
Yeah I mostly got Golbats. Its just like the whole Feebas thing in the Hoenn, sit and wait....forever before finding just one.

This is what I've been trying to say this entire time. You can -like- whatever Pokemon you want. But the fact stands... unless you like Arceus, there's better Pokemon with better stats than the one you like. Raichu's generally better than Pikachu, Plusle, and Minun, the only exception being that a Pikachu with Light Ball has higher attack stats.

You can -use- whatever you want, of course... I had a Plusle on my serious team in Pokemon XD. Nobody's trying to tell you what you can and can't use, except the friends that apparently are. And they shouldn't. The tier system is solely a matter of lots of serious official people trying to group Pokemon into categories to make fights more fair in competitive tournaments.

Speaking of the purpose of the tiers, you've got a very biased poll. There's no option that seems to be 'it's a good thing.' Three have 'it's bad' connotations, one seems neutral, and one is the "I don't care" option. Honestly, the purpose is what I just said: it's to balance out tournaments to keep things fair. If you entered a standard tournament (i.e. with a cash prize or something), and got swept by somebody who came in with a whole team of ubers, don't you think you'd be a little mad? So would everyone else. Likewise, if your favorite Pokemon all happened to be UU or BL, wouldn't getting swept by a Salamence tick you off a bit? Everyone else, too. The tier system is there to make sure everyone is using Pokemon that are more or less on par with one another in official tournaments with prizes.

Porygon 2 = Wall
Porygon Z = Sweeper
Porygon = OMGWTFSEZIURES
And that's why I never beleived in porygon Z untill I got one myself

And even though the trades are tedious I dont evolve my first porygon so that the strong one gets the sweeper role

As for togekiss Im happy that togepi finally gets a chance at usefulness

Its a higher tier than most only because of Zap Cannon, which not even my magneton will learn early. Porygon just got better thaats all.

Zap Cannon... is -not- the reason Porygon's line is in a higher tier than the Magnemite line. Porygon-Z has only one weakness, high Special Attack, decent Speed, a huge selection of moves, and an ability that makes Tri Attack (and Hyper Beam) insanely powerful.

Magnezone has a lot of resistances, but a popular 4x weakness brings it down a lot. Add in the fact that its ability and movepool are rather unremarkable, and it doesn't look very appealing.

(On a side note: Porygon-Z can't learn one single move that Magnezone doesn't resist, except the possibility of Hidden Power.)

Zap Cannon will -never- be the reason for a difference of tiers. The people who pick the tiers tend to disregard anything with less accuracy than Fire Blast as useless, except Thunder and Blizzard with weather support. Zap Cannon has 50 accuracy. Worse than Thunder, better than OHKO moves. Still pretty horrible.

Unless you use Lock On. Then is overkill.

Porygon Z's speical attack rivals that of alakazam at the highest non-uber out there

But I still think Magneton is better because if you play it from the game its from, I think you can get only one and it cant make eggs. Megneton for me is a good choice. If you can back it up it is good.

The tier system is there to make it fair to all trainers.

It lets you use your favourite pokémon, without the worry of running into something which out classes it no-end (If you are having a standard match, you won't run into a Mewtwo/Darkrai/Arceus/Dialga/etc.).

I do have gripes with it though. The naming system;
Uber.
Standard (Overused)
Borderline
Underused
Neverused
Pre-evolved.

Some of those can be missread as an insult to Arcanine/etc.

Wouldn't a standard: "S, A, B, C, D, E" be better?

-------

PS: Do not trust Smogon. Their website is so full of glitches that you'd have trouble getting any accurate information out of it at all.
Floatzel neverused? Articuno neverused?
These will get moved back to the Standard tier where they belong when someone else notices them...
....eventually ¬_¬

Also they've got a rediculous stat ranking system.
On the pokémon's page it has their stats coloured to see if they're high stats or low (from red to green to blue) However it's all automated. it takes the highest pokémon's stats and colours them depending on that.
Deoxys (Attack & Speed), Blissey and Shuckle have such a tremendously high stat that it pushes anything below 130 (also tremendously high) into the yellow.

-------

Sorry for that tangent.

tl;dr:
Tiers are great.
Smogon sucks.

Thanks for the info *writs down on sticky note "never trust smogon"*

I still don't like tiers. A pokemon battle is about over coming your disadvantage. If you do, then you know how to take out lots of pokemon.

Overcoming your disadvantage is one thing. Trying to beat a Mewtwo with a Luvdisc is another thing entirely. >.>

Besides, there's still plenty of breathing space in each tier. There's even strong and weak Pokemon among the ubers; each tier has Pokemon that are in its upper limits; Garchomp was once a high-end OU, and is now a low-end uber.

The 'disadvantage' you're overcoming shouldn't be 'the opposing Pokemon has insane stats whereas mine is totally average.' The main issue that should be met there is type matchups. You shouldn't worry about your Blaziken being able to beat Pokemon in higher tiers; if it can, good for it. What you should worry about is its type weaknesses; for example, it can be taught Thunderpunch by move tutors in Platinum, HG and SS, which is a much more valuable move for it than any Fire or Fighting move, since it hits Water types.

Luvdisc can beat Mewtwo its just hard. Not impossible.

Since when could they learn that. Is it possible for them to learn Ice punch too. They rounded out Blaziken. Not fond of it but it is ok.

Chewya wrote:Luvdisc can beat Mewtwo its just hard. Not impossible.

If your mewtwo gets killed by a luvdisc throw your ds out of the window of a 7 story building and never play pokemon again

There's also nothing stopping you using a pokémon in a lower tier than the one you'll be facing.

Yeah but the mocking of the stupid competition fanboys will be annoying like if I use an Altaira vs a Groudon.

Who said you have to competivitely battle? I still battle friends and ev train... I dont d tourneys though so it dosent affect me as bad

I do. Did you not see what I told Houndoom about how they tried to change my whole team based on the tiers, even though i liked those pokemon and they were strong.

Uhm, yeah. Luvdisc can beat Mewtwo if the Mewtwo is paralyzed in advance to cut its Speed, and then confused with Sweet Kiss or something. From there, it would take several turns of pure, absolute dumb luck.

I don't care about the fact that Luvdisc -can-, theoretically, beat Mewtwo with that pile of dumb luck. The fact is, the chance that it loses that fight is astronomical. That's why Luvdisc is in the NU tier with Pokemon it can fight on fairly even terms with; Mewtwo, likewise, is up in uber with Pokemon that have a chance of beating it.

Again, that 'overcoming disadvantages' thing should boil down to strategy and skill, not pure dumb luck, which is the only way something like Luvdisc would beat -anything- in the uber tier. In fact, everything there would OHKO it, given the chance to launch an attack. No question about it.

And, lastly... Blaziken can learn Thunderpunch from the shard move tutors on Platinum, and from the BP move tutors on HG and SS.

Sweet infant Jesus, I need to get a Blaziken into Hear Gold!

Hey A Gardevoir or Gallade, with Darka dn Ghoset moves, can take out Mewtwo with pure skill, and a critical hit with the Scope lens. Without it they can still take it out.

yeah but gallade=ou
luvdisc=dirt

What about Gardevoir? or Kadabra.
Swap Luvdis for Gyrados. Then what?

Uhm, no... the Pokemon you mentioned can reasonably beat Mewtwo by hitting it with a super effective move with a good stat while having high Special Defense. The skill factor is the fact that you'd essentially need to switch Gardevoir into a Psychic attack, then hope and pray that it didn't get hit with Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse after that.

Darkrai, for that matter, is something that actually -is- in the same tier as Mewtwo.

What do you even mean "Swap Luvdisc for Gyarados?" If you swap Luvdisc for Gyarados, you either have an OU smashing lots of NU Pokemon, or Luvdisc getting decimated by OUs.

What about an overpowered Magicarp whith a ridiculous flail. Its dangerous if Magicarp is on high levels and weak. Magicarp is bad but the move is relativeley good.

Relatively good doesn't cut it. And THE LEVELS DON'T MATTER. Here's the thing: even if it's down to nothing so Flail has the absurd 200 power or whatever... Magikarp's got the pitiful Attack stat that makes it about the equivalent of Hitmonchan using Tackle.

And, here's the thing...

"It's dangerous if Magikarp is on high levels"

Uhm... if you're having a serious battle, the opponent's going to be a high level, too. They aren't going to let you bring in a level 100 Magikarp to fight level 50s, for example. And things stay in proportion with level. A Pikachu has as much advantage against Magikarp at level 100 as it does at level 5.

Likewise, the Blissey thing. Sure, it's got almost-decent Defense at level 100... but that's a Defense that most average-ish Pokemon have at level 50. Or earlier.

And there's really no such thing as an overpowered Magikarp. You can get one with perfect IVs, EV train it completely, and Baton Pass it all the stat boosts you want... it's still a Magikarp. If you boost all its stats as much as possible, you still end up with a pathetic Pokemon; the only thing that'll end up so much as above average is its Speed. I saw a Youtube video where somebody Baton Passed a Magikarp a bunch of Swords Dances and used it to beat a Dragonite... but said Dragonite was both paralyzed and confused. Plus, the entire team was structured for the sole purpose of using Magikarp to beat a Frontier Brain. Why do that, when you can train a few Pokemon that can all viably fight on their own?

Yes, this boils down to 'With proper strategy and support, you can use the Pokemon you like and triumph, blah blah blah.' But, again... why? They could've Baton Passed the same boosts to -anything- and it would've done better. Because Magikarp sucks, no matter how ideal a Flail it manages to use. Bad defenses, and you could Baton Pass-switch your Pokemon in and have it immediately flattened. You can't depend on critical hits, even if you have an Absol with Super Luck, a Scope Lens, and four high-ratio moves. Likewise, you can't make your entire 'strategy' revolve around making your one favorite Pokemon capable of beating ubers. That isn't a strategy. If your idea of skill is sacrificing your entire team so that your favorite can beat one Pokemon, you're kidding yourself.

If your entire team is focused at beating the ubers and they are your favorite pokemon. They can always assit each other like a Skitty/ Delcatty's Assist. Its not always the stats. Critical hits are luck based and so is most of the came so you could get a boost from one critical hit just to win. Pokemon is a game of chance and skill like the game corners.

Tiers are there to SUGGEST what you should do. It by no means forces you to do something. I have pleanty of UUs on my team. They can be just as good as OU, but OU have better movesets, or stats, or something that makes them slightly more desireable, and if you have a problem with that, its really something to bring up with Nintendo, not Smogon.

Well when you have the battling fanboys that phsycally try to change your team to match tiers then its a problem.

Of course it's not always the stats. Smeargle is a borderline-OU Pokemon even though it has horrible stats, just because it can learn every move.

But the stats mean a lot. You max out Magikarp's stats with boosting moves, it's still far, far below average in -everything- except Speed. As a general rule... a base stat of 80 is average. Moderate, really. Above 100 is good. Below 70 is usually pretty bad. That's why you want Gallade using its 125 Attack stat, not its 65 Special Attack stat. It's why Blissey and Snorlax used to absorb attacks from special attackers and not physical attackers, and it's why Steelix and Skarmory are used the other way around.

And a UU physical attacker with 100 Special Attack is simply outclassed by the various attackers with 120+; Gardevoir, Alakazam, Magnezone, Porygon-Z... the list goes on. Houndoom falls into that 'overshadowed' category. I use it anyway. Know why? I like it. If I'm told that I shouldn't use it because other special attackers are better, I just say no. I don't fly off the handle and decide that the entire tier system is broken.

Snorlax is a defensive giant. It was on level 60 and I was hammering it with a bunch of pokemon and it took a while. It actually took a few of mine out. Stupid rest. I guees thats why it got ranked higher

Judging from your post, and the fact that you just discovered tiers makes me really wonder how long you have been into the competitive battling scene. Its not like the single player game, where you can just grind any old pokemon to a high level and kill anything in your path.

First off, in competitive scenes every pokemon is THE SAME LEVEL. Theres no differences in power there. Either you are lv 50, or lv 100. Thats it. Therefore the only advantages you can gain are their normal stat values, and boosts via IVs and EVs. Naturally pokemon are suited stat wise to fulfill different roles within these teams. Ones with high S.def and HP are good special walls, while high S.Atk and speed are sweepers, which are the ones those special walls are intending to block. Hopefully with a type advantage to help them do it. Not to mention there are no items to use in battle save the ones your pokes hold. Certian attacks are banned (OHKO and evasiveness raising ones) only one pokemon on a team is legally allowed to be asleep, and other rules I likely forget.

If you are a causal player, it dosnt matter. But those telling you to change your team are just trying to make it more competitively viable. And if you arnt playing competitively, there is no need to listen. But dont complain that the tiers are unjustified or unfair. They just wernt made for you.

Houndoomed wrote:Of course it's not always the stats. Smeargle is a borderline-OU Pokemon even though it has horrible stats, just because it can learn every move.

:3

Ive known about them but paid them no mind. Now its like influencing and stuff. Its even on the battle tower Wi-fi battles. Im sick of it but i like to battle a little.

The point of the battle tower wifi battles is for competitive battling. If you dont like it, dont play. THe frontier in general is supposed to be competitive, so be glad you get off easy with the facilities computer generated teams.